Which behaviours create the rules of a system? Who decides what they are? When are these decisions made? What happens when you don't play by the rules, and what constitutes a scam? Fascinated by systems and their hidden legacies, Rachel O’Dwyer and Georgina Voss explore moments of deviance and transgression, asking what they might tell us about the powers that flow through them.

In this conversation, authors Georgina Voss (Systems Ultra, 2024) and Rachel O’Dwyer (Tokens, 2023) explore the grey economies of online streamers, sex work, and influencers, share stories of how financial systems have come to be and mean, and analyse how these systems shape and structure behaviour, determining real-world consequences for power.

The conversation is the Berlin launch of their books: Tokens: The Future of Money in the Age of the Platform and Systems Ultra: Making Sense of Technology in a Complex World, both published by Verso Books.